It shows such cowardice to not want to be there for your wife during what will always be among the scariest and emotionally charged days of her life. I also can’t imagine not wanting to be in the room to see your new child.
It’s just a loveless, selfish perspective and I hate that he is hiding behind a pathetic notion of masculinity while encouraging other men to be cowards like him.
"Coward" was one of the first words that came to my mind, too. What a thin, fragile man. Even if you, as a (new) father, find it difficult to support your partner while they birth your child for whatever reason, and even if you don't feel the profundity the way many men do, you have to be emotionally stunted to conclude that your presence in the room was "disgusting and unnatural." As a man, I'd be embarrassed to admit to that degree of discomfort over basic realities of the world and what it means to be human.
Amen! I have seen countless births where the dad's presence made such a huge difference. To both the mom, and to me! It helps to have extra hands, and honestly the Doula effect is there when dads are present too.
Agreed with this regardless of whether a person finds a particular thing disgusting or unpleasant, I think that part of being there for your partner during important moments is to be willing to take their feelings and needs seriously enough to do things you don’t like or wouldn’t do on your own for them, at least sometimes. Certainly for life altering events like childbirth, if that’s what your wife needs to feel supported!
In a lesser sense I feel like this also comes up a lot in “man keeping” adjacent discourse where you see a lot of guys say “well, I just care about that less and I’m satisfied with how things are and since my wife cares about it more she should handle it.” And of course every marriage dynamic will be different and good ones will be based less on rigid bean counting than on mutual care and respect, but I just cringe when I see this particular response because the total blank spot on how the other person might be feeling and whether their feelings matter too
It's also crucial that someone is there to advocate for the person giving birth. Ideally, it's their partner, the other person responsible for this new life. So much can go wrong during the process and medical providers will too often listen to a man over a woman, even under the best circumstances.
This part is so crucial too, especially for high risk deliveries where there are additional doctors and nurses all rapidly throwing out descriptions of additional medications the mom might need.
Context: my wife gave birth to twins in an OR and I was in the OR with her the entire time
I would rather have been sitting pretty in the waiting room, too, but I had to push a baby out. Mom doesn't get to opt out of the experience, so why should dad? Maybe men would be less inclined to force women into childbirth if they had to witness the results?
Excellent article as always Dr. Saxbe! This is the problem that I have with "pro-masculine" supposed voices of reason like Scott Galloway: they want to have it both ways. I'm sorry, you can't spend an entire media campaign advocating for the importance of fathers while having such takes about childbirth. If fathers want to be equally important, then they are either all in, or they get the backseat treatment.
That's the thing. Gallaway has demonstrated more than enough times that he isn't advocating for men as men. He's advocating for chivalry while dressing it up as feminism. You'll see the same thing in feminists who argue in favour of "healthy masculinity". It's just chivalry by a different word. And chivalry is predicated, in large part, on men have some control over women. In Scott's case, it's leaving the yucky stuff of parenthood to women under the banner of "women do it better".
I completely agree! I think even the most well meaning men or male advocates have a really difficult time understanding the world from a non-patriarchal perspective, so it’s almost like men and women are speaking two different languages with little to no possible interpretation that leads to understanding. I’m sure in Galloway’s mind, he’s simply complementing women for being good at what they do as mothers, but in the same breath saying fathers are equally important by using patriarchal definitions of what a father should be. They cannot help but put themselves at the top of the hierarchy that was created for them and I don’t necessarily blame them, after all, it’s what they’ve been taught their whole lives. What I don’t have patience for is the lack of curiosity or even open to the possibility that they are wrong (which, unfortunately, they are).
"In another study, pregnant couples who argued more negatively during a conflict task in our lab subsequently had more difficult childbirth experiences several months later, suggesting that the tenor of the couple relationship may have shaped how they navigated labor."
I can vouch for this! A supportive, awesome dad can make or break a birth. An old midwife coworker of mine told the story of how a dad showed up with his new girlfriend to her patients birth. It caused the woman in labor so much sadness and distress that her labor stalled and she ended up needing a C-section. My coworker swore up and down that it was the emotional trauma of him showing up with a new girl to the birth that caused it 😔
Funny, my spouse loves this dude’s podcast (mostly for investing advice) but he has consistently said being there for the birth of our daughter was the best day of his life (and he even cried! I never see him cry!) During the whole time, he was taking and sending photos (blood, nudity, cutting the chord and all) to my very squeamish, very “birth-is-gross”, anti-kid sisters in the family group chat, alongside excited messages about “how in love” he already is and how amazing it was to watch etc. 😬 A few days after the fact, when I told him he totally freaked out my family he was like “Really?! But it was the most beautiful thing ever!” 😅😅😅 Another anecdote against your theory, Galloway.
In many countries including parts of southeast Europe, fathers (and any other person) are excluded from delivery rooms and maternity wards entirely. The mother labors (or has surgery) alone with medical staff, recovers alone alongside other mothers on the ward, and begins caring for her newborn alone until discharge. This is how public hospitals operate. Private hospitals, which are only a few, function in the western way (and are horribly expensive). What's interesting is that these cultures often have much stronger postpartum support structures waiting at home. Usually a tradition of being under the care of mother/sister/close female friends/relatives for six weeks. But I think a lot of women would really like to have someone close with them during the labor, too, only they'd still have their mom or sister rather than their husband there. I would have loved to have my husband during delivery, it's just that it was never even an option. From his point: he would rather it be my mother than him, but would have done it if it mattered to me. Just thought I could add another view.
Thank you! Yes, I wrote about this in the book…dads are not routinely present in many countries. Abigail Leonard’s book Four Mothers also talks about how this looks in Japan. It’s so interesting!
This is such a good article!! I'll never forget when my first son was born, he started crying right away and then one (1) second later my husband burst into tears as well. It was so awesome. Also after the birth of our first baby the midwife told us she had never seen a couple so in love lol, so at least sometimes it can be a good bonding experience!
I attended the births of both our sons. My brave wife opted for home births, attended by trained mid-wives. She, the midwives and the babies were the "stars" of the show.
I was support, heavy lifting, run and get it NOW. I was fully briefed on my role beforehand by the midwives, knew what tasks were assigned, complied without drama or fuss when directed where/when to be handy, and made sure I stayed the fuck out of the way.
From first contraction, through transition, to delivery, to post-care, to diapering and changing the first diaper. As it should be. I wouldn't trade a single moment I experienced during the births of my sons for anything in the world.
Women are tough. I've broken bones, peeled skin off in motorcycle accidents, smashed digits with hand tools, even suffered a stroke and all sorts of physical harm to myself, but I've never gone through a travail like birth that my wife did twice, without a single painkiller. Further, what women go through in a birth, its a goddamn miracle a woman will even look at, never mind speak to her husband/partner afterward.
Galloway's comments, and those of other men are those of squeamish what-about-me silly selfish putzes.
I think it's strange and very sad when men don't want to be there at the births of their kids (I gave birth to my first child while sitting on my husband's lap and he caught our second child in his own hands), but I do want to say that if they don't, I kind of applaud them for knowing their own boundaries—if you're going to be a shit about it or know you can't handle it, it's WAY better for everyone, particularly the person giving birth, that you aren't there. As a doula, I've seen all kinds of different personalities of dads in the birthing room. Ones that honestly have better doula skills than me, ones that are scared shitless, ones that cry their eyes out, ones that swear they won't "look" beacuse they don't want to ruin sex (but yeah, they always look!), one that literally sat on his laptop in the corner because he felt that's all he would be able to do.
I appreciate that you touch on how it's been a relatively new development in our culture to have men present at birth (and that it's still not common in other cultures), because this is something I talk about a lot with my doula clients when discussing how I can best support a male partner and how they envision themselves at the birth. We have not necessarily equipped men well for the sights/sounds/experiences of birth, even if they do a childbirth class, watch birth videos, etc. 98% of American families give birth in the hospital, and it's A LOT emotionally and mentally to be the sole support person helping your partner navigate the embodied experience of labor AND the medical system. It's not a family-centered or family-friendly system, and men often come out with trauma. I wish we were having real conversations about how to make birth a family-centered event where the bulk of support didn't fall on dads and where no one is expected to white-knuckle their way through this intense, life-changing experience (rather than whatver Scott Galloway's conversation is lol)
They want the Yummy things and reject the yucky. They will never say no to sex, neither to an always available beautiful body, right?. They feel entitled to pleasure. But the bloody delivery of a baby? Oh no! They will be so uncomfortable! Poor big boys! Let’s prevent them from yucky situations while the mom of their children put their own life at risk and the “beauty” of their bodies are jeopardized. I can bet that these guys demand labor from their wives as soon as they leave the hospital.
Didn't Soctt actually attend the birth of his child? I don't think he explicitly says it, but the way he talks about it sounds like he did. So my understanding is that he concluded it wasn't for him based on that experience. Which puts him in the 6%/20% of that 2020 Germany study.
Also, I think Gordon Ramsay didn't attend the birth of his first four child, but did for last two children. And passed out during the birth of his fifth child.
And if you were to believe the article below, he didn't attend the first four not because he didn't want to, but because his wife told him not to.
I don't know these dads personally, but I just wanted to add these nuances just to highlight how diverse the experience and its interpretations can be even among dads.
I can’t imagine not being present at my son’s birth! It was a profound experience and I’m so happy I was a part of it. Also Aimee Mann is great! Very underrated and under appreciated.
I was present at my wife's Caesarean delivery. Because of the way things went, not only did she seem to derive comfort from my presence, I am the only one of us who can remember the event and it's immediate aftermath.
It shows such cowardice to not want to be there for your wife during what will always be among the scariest and emotionally charged days of her life. I also can’t imagine not wanting to be in the room to see your new child.
It’s just a loveless, selfish perspective and I hate that he is hiding behind a pathetic notion of masculinity while encouraging other men to be cowards like him.
"Coward" was one of the first words that came to my mind, too. What a thin, fragile man. Even if you, as a (new) father, find it difficult to support your partner while they birth your child for whatever reason, and even if you don't feel the profundity the way many men do, you have to be emotionally stunted to conclude that your presence in the room was "disgusting and unnatural." As a man, I'd be embarrassed to admit to that degree of discomfort over basic realities of the world and what it means to be human.
Amen! I have seen countless births where the dad's presence made such a huge difference. To both the mom, and to me! It helps to have extra hands, and honestly the Doula effect is there when dads are present too.
Agreed with this regardless of whether a person finds a particular thing disgusting or unpleasant, I think that part of being there for your partner during important moments is to be willing to take their feelings and needs seriously enough to do things you don’t like or wouldn’t do on your own for them, at least sometimes. Certainly for life altering events like childbirth, if that’s what your wife needs to feel supported!
This is so true! Sometimes we have to do things we don't enjoy for the people we love.
In a lesser sense I feel like this also comes up a lot in “man keeping” adjacent discourse where you see a lot of guys say “well, I just care about that less and I’m satisfied with how things are and since my wife cares about it more she should handle it.” And of course every marriage dynamic will be different and good ones will be based less on rigid bean counting than on mutual care and respect, but I just cringe when I see this particular response because the total blank spot on how the other person might be feeling and whether their feelings matter too
Yes! 100%...it's like, sure, it's fine to have lower standards, but when you care about someone you try to meet them in the middle!
Exactly! At least have it be a conversation where everyone feels heard.
Spot on!
It's also crucial that someone is there to advocate for the person giving birth. Ideally, it's their partner, the other person responsible for this new life. So much can go wrong during the process and medical providers will too often listen to a man over a woman, even under the best circumstances.
Great point…women often need a point person during labor to talk to the doctor and nurses
This part is so crucial too, especially for high risk deliveries where there are additional doctors and nurses all rapidly throwing out descriptions of additional medications the mom might need.
Context: my wife gave birth to twins in an OR and I was in the OR with her the entire time
I would rather have been sitting pretty in the waiting room, too, but I had to push a baby out. Mom doesn't get to opt out of the experience, so why should dad? Maybe men would be less inclined to force women into childbirth if they had to witness the results?
Excellent article as always Dr. Saxbe! This is the problem that I have with "pro-masculine" supposed voices of reason like Scott Galloway: they want to have it both ways. I'm sorry, you can't spend an entire media campaign advocating for the importance of fathers while having such takes about childbirth. If fathers want to be equally important, then they are either all in, or they get the backseat treatment.
That's the thing. Gallaway has demonstrated more than enough times that he isn't advocating for men as men. He's advocating for chivalry while dressing it up as feminism. You'll see the same thing in feminists who argue in favour of "healthy masculinity". It's just chivalry by a different word. And chivalry is predicated, in large part, on men have some control over women. In Scott's case, it's leaving the yucky stuff of parenthood to women under the banner of "women do it better".
I completely agree! I think even the most well meaning men or male advocates have a really difficult time understanding the world from a non-patriarchal perspective, so it’s almost like men and women are speaking two different languages with little to no possible interpretation that leads to understanding. I’m sure in Galloway’s mind, he’s simply complementing women for being good at what they do as mothers, but in the same breath saying fathers are equally important by using patriarchal definitions of what a father should be. They cannot help but put themselves at the top of the hierarchy that was created for them and I don’t necessarily blame them, after all, it’s what they’ve been taught their whole lives. What I don’t have patience for is the lack of curiosity or even open to the possibility that they are wrong (which, unfortunately, they are).
"In another study, pregnant couples who argued more negatively during a conflict task in our lab subsequently had more difficult childbirth experiences several months later, suggesting that the tenor of the couple relationship may have shaped how they navigated labor."
I can vouch for this! A supportive, awesome dad can make or break a birth. An old midwife coworker of mine told the story of how a dad showed up with his new girlfriend to her patients birth. It caused the woman in labor so much sadness and distress that her labor stalled and she ended up needing a C-section. My coworker swore up and down that it was the emotional trauma of him showing up with a new girl to the birth that caused it 😔
What!!?! What kind of a$$hole brings his g/f to the ex-wife’s birth?
And what kind of insensitive woman goes along with?!?
Funny, my spouse loves this dude’s podcast (mostly for investing advice) but he has consistently said being there for the birth of our daughter was the best day of his life (and he even cried! I never see him cry!) During the whole time, he was taking and sending photos (blood, nudity, cutting the chord and all) to my very squeamish, very “birth-is-gross”, anti-kid sisters in the family group chat, alongside excited messages about “how in love” he already is and how amazing it was to watch etc. 😬 A few days after the fact, when I told him he totally freaked out my family he was like “Really?! But it was the most beautiful thing ever!” 😅😅😅 Another anecdote against your theory, Galloway.
In many countries including parts of southeast Europe, fathers (and any other person) are excluded from delivery rooms and maternity wards entirely. The mother labors (or has surgery) alone with medical staff, recovers alone alongside other mothers on the ward, and begins caring for her newborn alone until discharge. This is how public hospitals operate. Private hospitals, which are only a few, function in the western way (and are horribly expensive). What's interesting is that these cultures often have much stronger postpartum support structures waiting at home. Usually a tradition of being under the care of mother/sister/close female friends/relatives for six weeks. But I think a lot of women would really like to have someone close with them during the labor, too, only they'd still have their mom or sister rather than their husband there. I would have loved to have my husband during delivery, it's just that it was never even an option. From his point: he would rather it be my mother than him, but would have done it if it mattered to me. Just thought I could add another view.
Great article!
Thank you! Yes, I wrote about this in the book…dads are not routinely present in many countries. Abigail Leonard’s book Four Mothers also talks about how this looks in Japan. It’s so interesting!
To borrow a term Scott Galloway has probably used in the past, not wanting to be there for your wife during childbirth gives off big beta energy.
This is such a good article!! I'll never forget when my first son was born, he started crying right away and then one (1) second later my husband burst into tears as well. It was so awesome. Also after the birth of our first baby the midwife told us she had never seen a couple so in love lol, so at least sometimes it can be a good bonding experience!
My husband cried when both our kids were born, too! It was so sweet and a moving moment for both of us.
I attended the births of both our sons. My brave wife opted for home births, attended by trained mid-wives. She, the midwives and the babies were the "stars" of the show.
I was support, heavy lifting, run and get it NOW. I was fully briefed on my role beforehand by the midwives, knew what tasks were assigned, complied without drama or fuss when directed where/when to be handy, and made sure I stayed the fuck out of the way.
From first contraction, through transition, to delivery, to post-care, to diapering and changing the first diaper. As it should be. I wouldn't trade a single moment I experienced during the births of my sons for anything in the world.
Women are tough. I've broken bones, peeled skin off in motorcycle accidents, smashed digits with hand tools, even suffered a stroke and all sorts of physical harm to myself, but I've never gone through a travail like birth that my wife did twice, without a single painkiller. Further, what women go through in a birth, its a goddamn miracle a woman will even look at, never mind speak to her husband/partner afterward.
Galloway's comments, and those of other men are those of squeamish what-about-me silly selfish putzes.
I think it's strange and very sad when men don't want to be there at the births of their kids (I gave birth to my first child while sitting on my husband's lap and he caught our second child in his own hands), but I do want to say that if they don't, I kind of applaud them for knowing their own boundaries—if you're going to be a shit about it or know you can't handle it, it's WAY better for everyone, particularly the person giving birth, that you aren't there. As a doula, I've seen all kinds of different personalities of dads in the birthing room. Ones that honestly have better doula skills than me, ones that are scared shitless, ones that cry their eyes out, ones that swear they won't "look" beacuse they don't want to ruin sex (but yeah, they always look!), one that literally sat on his laptop in the corner because he felt that's all he would be able to do.
I appreciate that you touch on how it's been a relatively new development in our culture to have men present at birth (and that it's still not common in other cultures), because this is something I talk about a lot with my doula clients when discussing how I can best support a male partner and how they envision themselves at the birth. We have not necessarily equipped men well for the sights/sounds/experiences of birth, even if they do a childbirth class, watch birth videos, etc. 98% of American families give birth in the hospital, and it's A LOT emotionally and mentally to be the sole support person helping your partner navigate the embodied experience of labor AND the medical system. It's not a family-centered or family-friendly system, and men often come out with trauma. I wish we were having real conversations about how to make birth a family-centered event where the bulk of support didn't fall on dads and where no one is expected to white-knuckle their way through this intense, life-changing experience (rather than whatver Scott Galloway's conversation is lol)
They want the Yummy things and reject the yucky. They will never say no to sex, neither to an always available beautiful body, right?. They feel entitled to pleasure. But the bloody delivery of a baby? Oh no! They will be so uncomfortable! Poor big boys! Let’s prevent them from yucky situations while the mom of their children put their own life at risk and the “beauty” of their bodies are jeopardized. I can bet that these guys demand labor from their wives as soon as they leave the hospital.
Hi Darby,
Didn't Soctt actually attend the birth of his child? I don't think he explicitly says it, but the way he talks about it sounds like he did. So my understanding is that he concluded it wasn't for him based on that experience. Which puts him in the 6%/20% of that 2020 Germany study.
Also, I think Gordon Ramsay didn't attend the birth of his first four child, but did for last two children. And passed out during the birth of his fifth child.
And if you were to believe the article below, he didn't attend the first four not because he didn't want to, but because his wife told him not to.
https://www.emmasdiary.co.uk/news/gordon-ramsey-reveals-he-passed-out-in-delivery-room-while-holding-newborn-son
I don't know these dads personally, but I just wanted to add these nuances just to highlight how diverse the experience and its interpretations can be even among dads.
Thank you, that's helpful context!
🙂↕️
I can’t imagine not being present at my son’s birth! It was a profound experience and I’m so happy I was a part of it. Also Aimee Mann is great! Very underrated and under appreciated.
I was present at my wife's Caesarean delivery. Because of the way things went, not only did she seem to derive comfort from my presence, I am the only one of us who can remember the event and it's immediate aftermath.
As a new Dad, I can’t fathom what planet Scott is on